TFARCHIVE FORUMS

I'm pretty sure by now most of you have seen the latest toy fair pictures, read the press release and whatnot. To sum it up

Movie Trilogy: Not happening. Bizarrely, the only figure released in the US will be the deluxe DOTM Prime with the japanese trailer. No mechtech weapons included. Soundwave, Que, Leadfoot and any others are Asia exclusives. Something about a Prime and Bumblebee to be released in conjecture with Transformers: The Ride, along with Evac? Meh.

Prime line: The only one I really like and has a spot in my shelf is the voyager Starscream. The rest suffer from a combination of being much smaller than usual, under detailed and in the case of RID Bulkhead, look like CRAP. If Breakdown turns out to be nice, I might snag him, and maybe Knockout [noooot nice] just to go with him. If Dreadwind is indeed a recolour of Skyquake in the series as is his cyberverse toy, he's in too. Otherwise, a big MEH.

Generations: Jazz and Prime I didn't like. Bruticus was so-so. Thankfull the entirety of wave 02 is all five members of Bruticus. Shockwave was decent. Somebody at the convention had the smarts to bring a WFC Megatron and stand him next to those figures...yeah, they're smaller allright. Jazz is a full head shorter than Megatron, who wasn't that big of a deluxe to begin with. Hasbro promised\or was misquoted around 40 generations figures, not holding my breath.

I'm not really going to rant about toysizes\hasbro LYING\the US people are CHEATED of their rightful toys at 9.99, so...

A big thanks, because for once ever since TFTM 07 I'm not driven by an insatiable hunger to collect and taste at least all the moulds in one line. Animated bled me dry in a good way as I loved the figures, ROTF was awesome, DOTM was full of anticipation it never paid off and now I'm indifferent to RID.

This means that I have more than enough time to appreciate and love my figures more, change their displays and all without worrying who goes when new guys come in. This means that when new MP figures come out, which is basically my TF collecting for now, I'll appreciate them even more.

On a sidenote, perhaps I'll go back and collect at least the more solid leader figures from past lines. Maybe get a few more macross figures now that my wallet isn't bleeding from TF overpopulation. Maybe complete my Hercules instead of selling him.

This truly feels like a vacation in toy collecting, heh. Any of you guys re-evaluating your collecting habits at the new lineup? Mind you, this is coming from a guy who LOVES the Prime show and honestly wanted to go ape-shit on the figures, even collecting all the packages and variants.

[or should I put, , nah, I'm liking this change]

Knightdramon wrote:Soundwave, Que, Leadfoot

CLIFFJUMPER WINS! CLIFFJUMPER MOTHER****ING WINS! A victory for nutcases who panic and spend too much on toys. Hoo-ha!

(Soundwave and Leadfoot are nice figs, though, it'll be a shame if they only get a limited release; I would bet they'll be, at worst, non-film figs in the TF4 line)


I too feel strangely liberated by the drop-off in figures I really wanted. The FE Prime figs had me really stoked, I wanted the entire cast and was expecting to go Army Builder on the Vehicons. RiD has somewhat cooled my enthusiasm, and moved it down to "I'll take my chances with UK retail, thanks, and if there are some good Joes out I'll get them instead"

I only collect on very random whims, so no huge loss to me.

I appreciate upcoming releases from afar, and if one happens to tickle my fancy, I consider picking it up. That said, when Prime first started, I was tempted by the prospect of a Ratchet figure. Awesome character, awesome CG model, awesome voice actor -- of course I'd want one. And, damn it, after finally seeing it nearly a year later....

I really wanted to like it. I still can't quite place my finger on what I find off about it, but I know my impression of it is not at all helped by the figure's bland coloring (or lack of).

Airachnid, I feel, also deserves a great figure, but I'm not too optimistic...

I know what you mean, though with me it applies to the line as a whole - I was seriously, seriously excited about the Prime figs (strangely, more than I was for the films, possibly because I didn't start picking up the toys until after ROTF, so maybe the impact was lessened by most being out already), especially after the FE pictures began to circulate - it looked like they'd got this one right from top to bottom.

Don't get me wrong, RiD's not a disaster (it'd probably feel a lot better if they'd ankled FE before it got to retail), but it looks more like the typical main-line "Will this do?" rubbish. Add onto that that cost-cutting (figure size, paint apps, probably plastic quality) and yeh, it's feeling more like Just Another Transformers Line.

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Two good things about the DotM 'cancellations': - 1/ Que's only released toy is called Que. Actually, the guy was called Que in ****ing dialogue, so the Wakitards aren't going to change now... 2/ All the muppets going "HAY HE'S GOT A G1 HEADSCULPT IN DA INSTRUCZ" get a nice, hefty kick in the bollocks. Always thought what with the Classics and Prime versions covering Classic Wheeljack it was unlikely anyway...

I am similarly uninspired. DOTM was just poo as a toyline, a shame coming off the back of the generally excellent ROTF/NEST/HFTD figures.The quality of Hasbro's recent Transformers product has taken a severe nosedive, I wonder what that's all about? Is it resources? The global downturn? General 'F**k it, kids and collectors'll lap up any old sh*t" ? What?

I am insanely excited by the prospect of a Death's Head toy from the Marvel lines so that's what I'll be looking out for (and hoping it doesn't pulled or turns out to be Death's Head 3.0). i think that and some of the lego Batman stuff are what will be holding my attention this year.

Cliffjumper wrote: Add onto that that cost-cutting (figure size...

Not singling you out Cliffy, but the "figure size" argument does ruffle my feathers just a little. While I understand the figures have gotten a little smaller with the price increasing only a little here in the US (Target and Wal*Mart are selling them for around $12 VS the $10 from Classics), but overall we've been pretty damned spoiled. While there is no excuse for the paint apps, or in some cases piss poor design, I'm okay with the figures getting just a little smaller. They get a break from me for that, given the price we are paying for them.

In 1984 the Autobot Cars where about $9. Figuring in inflation that's $19.48 today. Those tiny little cars with very little articulation cost kids the same price a voyager does today (I just bought a Prime Megatron at Target for $19.99).

Now, as we all know plastic is a petroleum product. You need oil to make it. In 2006, when Classics released, oil was $58.30 a barrel, on average (which, when you figure in inflation, was close to same price it was in 1984). In today's money, after inflation, that's $65.05. The average price of a barrel of oil so far this year is $87.48. Last year it was around $72. So oil, the base raw material for plastic, has increased dramatically in price. This means that plastics of all sorts have had their prices increase as well so that people can continue to make a profit. This forces companies to either jack prices way up or to make other concessions. I give Hasbro full credit for trying to find a middle ground here.

So, a quick recap:
Raw Price of a "Deluxe" car: $9 VS $13 (44.4% increase)
Adjusted for inflation price: $19.48 VS $13 (33% decrease)
Raw price of oil: $58.30 VS $72 (22% increase)
Adjusted cost: $65.05 VS $72 (10% increase)

What does this say to me? That says oil prices have increased roughly 10% from 1984 to now, figuring for inflation, but the cost of the larger, much better engineered figures has come down after you take into account inflation by roughly 1/3. This also says to me that Hasbro is paying 10% more for plastic now then they where in 2006, while the figure prices have gone up 30%. This seems shitty until you realize that those figures have to get to us, the consumer. That takes fuel for boats, trucks, and trains. Fuel prices have been spiking (I'm paying about $4 a gallon of gas at the moment, and I'm in a good location, while in 2006 I was paying $3 [for those of you keeping track, that's a 25% increase]), and that has to be taken into account as well.

So all in all, I'd say Hasbro has done a decent job getting us toys (at least here in the US) at a relatively flat rate going back to 1984, while increasing toy size over all and making them much better engineered. While the figured have shrunk a little since the start of Classics, they where also cheaper to produce and ship then. I'll gladly take a little figure shrinkage over a large price hike any day. The trend of rising costs and trying to keep figures in the hands of kids is also probably responsible for some figures getting thinner plastic.

Now if only we can convince them that paint is not the devil and that they should use more of it (although the alternative is for them to go back to stickers).

TL/DR version:
-Price for a Classics Deluxe has gone up 30%
-Fuel prices have gone up 25%
-Raw material prices have got up 10%
-Hasbro shrinks figures a bit to help keep the cost of the figures in kid's price range to make up for rising costs of doing business.
-I'm okay with this if it means I still get a close to Classics sized figure at a reasonable price.
-Hasbro was fleecing us in 1984.

Skyquake87 wrote:I am similarly uninspired. DOTM was just poo as a toyline, a shame coming off the back of the generally excellent ROTF/NEST/HFTD figures.The quality of Hasbro's recent Transformers product has taken a severe nosedive, I wonder what that's all about? Is it resources? The global downturn? General 'F**k it, kids and collectors'll lap up any old sh*t" ? What?

In my personal opinion, the recent "dive" in quality, size and whatnot sterns from rising costs of materials, the exchange rate, and large retail chains demanding lower prices.

Much like, say, Henkei Hound, which was somewhat smaller than his wave mates because of the extra Ravage, or Classics Bumblebee with his jet ski, a lot of the downsizing in DOTM occurred because of hasbro's insistence of including mechtech weapons and the retailer's demand to keep the costs down.

Which makes zero sense in every other continent, because toy prices have steadily gone up from Armada until now. DOTM Soundwave, for instance, is comprised of lots of small parts when compared to Armada Hot Shot, and yet they more or less share the same price point. I believe it was hasbro's intention to downsize the figures instead of giving in and actually lose money.

Couple that with how short attention spans children have nowadays, they actually want a gimmick to keep children entertained. Animated and most of ROTF\HFTD showed how transformers with no real gimmick fared. Sadly, Animated didn't do well, and even though ROTF was the best selling line in the franchise, I imagine tons of kids crying when trying to transform LDR Prime, Jetfire, or Skids and Mudflap, all prominent characters in the film.

Do I like the new gimmicks? No. I hated the fact that my DOTM Soundwave was smaller than ROTF Sideswipe, had virtually no paint to his car hull, and came with a gun almost as big as he was that looked out of place whenever you put it on him. For me, most DLX mechtechs were the equivalent of those huge breasted women you see in adult sites and movies. Fun to look, maybe fool around, but SO out of place with the rest of the body

I do, firmly believe, that we collectors grew way too spoiled in 2009-11. In just two years, we got show accurate, beefy, painted up figures that appeased to ALL tastes. We got a very, very fine generations line with tons of obscure or comic only characters, we got actual cybertronian figures that unlike the titaniums, didn't suck, and ROTF LDR Prime was a masterpiece at the 40 USD price range.

So now that the actual lines focus on the target group indeed, we bitch and moan. Some are more vocal, some not.

Well, as my one attempt to buy a recent Transformer figure in the Wheeljack has been a complete failure due to either scalpers or my local Argos' having complete apathy towards getting any of the stock in I've gone back to not paying much attention to the toys.

I think it bothers me more because we've had 'full' size figures more recently. DotM toys compare badly to ROTF ones, for example; as much as it pissed me off, there was the MechTech weapons as an excuse. But RiD Prime is preposterous in these terms; he's a head taller than ROTF Sideways, and not significantly more complex (at a quick guess, they've possibly got the same rough amount of working parts); in fact, with no scales to hand, I'd be tempted to say they weigh roughly the same. It's not been a gradual shedding of an eighth of an inch here or there - ROTF Voyagers were roughly the same size as Movie ones; HFTD ones didn't look much smaller (didn't get any of them, though); DotM ones look significantly smaller, and RiD Prime certainly is.

The Autobot cars are too much of a freak thing to make a modern price comparison - diecast metal, and for the time a lot of small, complex parts - which is why the 1986/87 lines move towards larger, simpler all-plastic figures for roughly the same price (the Movie cars, HMs, PMs). None of these are straight comparisons with current assortments just because they happened to be a similar size, retroactively forcing old figures into current price points is daft. Deluxes have only existed since 1996.

EDIT: Agree with Knightdramon here, incidentally - I don't think it's all a complete disaster, just that this year and the next couple are going to be the inevitable decline from a golden age.

I think a lull in must-haves would be a blessing for most fans at the momentn assuming it doesn't hurt the franchise. Which, lets be honest, would take some doing at this stage. I know I personally need a chance to catch up on a lot of figures I couldn't afford the first time round. I think Cliffy's right when he says we've been spoiled lately. If I saw this year's line-up a decade ago I'd have had a heart attack.

Cliffjumper wrote: The Autobot cars are too much of a freak thing to make a modern price comparison - diecast metal, and for the time a lot of small, complex parts - which is why the 1986/87 lines move towards larger, simpler all-plastic figures for roughly the same price (the Movie cars, HMs, PMs). None of these are straight comparisons with current assortments just because they happened to be a similar size, retroactively forcing old figures into current price points is daft. Deluxes have only existed since 1996.

The only reason I used them is that they seemed like the "average" figure. I remember as a kid a lot of the Autobot cars running around, but not so much the bigger toys. The bigger the toy got, the fewer and fewer of them you saw. That and they did occupy a similar raw price point. The mini vehicles where $3 a pop, which in today's cash is about $6.50. My point was more that the old toys where tiny and expensive and that with Classics/Universe we've been spoiled with larger, complex toys at a much lower price, and that with costs for Hasbro rising they are taking steps to keep the toys at the $5-15 range for the most part so kids can actually still afford them.

I did research the prices of the 1984 assortments when they came out, so I'm not just pulling numbers out of my ass here. The Autobot cars did cost right around $9 back in the day.

I'm not saying you did pull anything out of your arse, just that the pre-organised size class lines aren't comparable to those from BW onwards. The Autobot cars were taken from another line which would have had no concept of this even if it had existed at the time.

Size correlation is just a random way of doing things. If you work from the bottom up, the cars probably do slot into about "Deluxe" in the rankings. However, from the top down there's no real Leader or Voyager slot, with the cases largely being tailored for the toys avaliable to Hasbro rather than designed for them. And if we do take the Autobot cars as Deluxes, then so are the Headmasters and Targetmasters, most of which are (from memory) about the same size as RiD Voyager Prime.

As I say, the marked size decline has come since ROTF/HFTD. Sideways is a head taller than the FE Deluxes, which didn't have the MechTech get-out and [the ones I have] aren't particularly dense or even especially complex.

Knightdramon wrote:Somebody at the convention had the smarts to bring a WFC Megatron and stand him next to those figures...yeah, they're smaller allright. Jazz is a full head shorter than Megatron, who wasn't that big of a deluxe to begin with.

He's actually one of the larger Deluxes we've gotten in recent years, and taller than practically all of the Classics/Universe/Generations Deluxes. Only Sunstreaker/Red Alert/Sideswipe match him for height among the ones I've got on display, and they don't have the same bulk. So a head shorter than WfC Megatron translates into being the same height as Classics Hot Rod or RTS Tracks...well within the average height range of Deluxes since Beast Wars established the size class.

That's not to say that they toys aren't getting smaller on average (they are), but these particular ones aren't that bad.

Cliffjumper wrote:I think it bothers me more because we've had 'full' size figures more recently. DotM toys compare badly to ROTF ones, for example; as much as it pissed me off, there was the MechTech weapons as an excuse. But RiD Prime is preposterous in these terms; he's a head taller than ROTF Sideways, and not significantly more complex (at a quick guess, they've possibly got the same rough amount of working parts); in fact, with no scales to hand, I'd be tempted to say they weigh roughly the same. It's not been a gradual shedding of an eighth of an inch here or there - ROTF Voyagers were roughly the same size as Movie ones; HFTD ones didn't look much smaller (didn't get any of them, though); DotM ones look significantly smaller, and RiD Prime certainly is.

This has been happening with every size class since Armada, though, hasn't it? Voyagers in particular have been getting progressively smaller with each passing line. Line up an average-sized figure in that price point from Armada, Energon, Cybertron, Classics, the first movie line, ROTF, HFTD and DOTM and you can seem them getting progressively smaller with each passing year. And that's on top of the way they removed the electronics from the range around 2006ish to save money. It was easy to miss because it didn't change much with each line, but they've progressively gone from being on par with the Beast Wars Ultra class to being about the same size as Megas.

I guess I'm just confused why people are only noticing it now.

Warcry wrote:He's actually one of the larger Deluxes we've gotten in recent years, and taller than practically all of the Classics/Universe/Generations Deluxes. Only Sunstreaker/Red Alert/Sideswipe match him for height among the ones I've got on display, and they don't have the same bulk. So a head shorter than WfC Megatron translates into being the same height as Classics Hot Rod or RTS Tracks...well within the average height range of Deluxes since Beast Wars established the size class.

That's not to say that they toys aren't getting smaller on average (they are), but these particular ones aren't that bad.


This has been happening with every size class since Armada, though, hasn't it? Voyagers in particular have been getting progressively smaller with each passing line. Line up an average-sized figure in that price point from Armada, Energon, Cybertron, Classics, the first movie line, ROTF, HFTD and DOTM and you can seem them getting progressively smaller with each passing year. And that's on top of the way they removed the electronics from the range around 2006ish to save money. It was easy to miss because it didn't change much with each line, but they've progressively gone from being on par with the Beast Wars Ultra class to being about the same size as Megas.

I guess I'm just confused why people are only noticing it now.

Well, picked up my Megatron and moved him around the room, he is bigger than I remembered, but he's the average deluxe height. The new figures are essentially Generations Wheeljack height instead of Tracks\Hot Rod, ie even shorter.

The trend wasn't as noticeable because figures got smaller\bigger on a case to case base. Armada leader(s, just Prime actually) was bigger than Energon Prime, but Cybertron Prime was bigger than Energon. Movie 1 Prime was average size for a LDR, Animated had shorter leaders than that, ROTF had bigger leaders than other lines, DOTM had shorter as well.

Energon Ironhide [blue truck] was bigger or at least on par with Armada Starscream, and both were on equal terms with GF Vector Prime and so on. Sure there were always exceptions [Movie Voyager Blackout was much shorter than all his wave mates, Animated DLX Lockdown was huge, Animated VYGR Lugnut was tiny] but there never was such a drastic size reduction from line to line in the past few years.

Warcry wrote:I guess I'm just confused why people are only noticing it now.

Because I've just bought a Voyager that's a inch taller than a Deluxe for not far off twice the price? I've not dug '07 Ratchet out, but I'm pretty sure RiD Prime Prime is going to look like a total midget if I do.

There's no size change between '07 and '09-10. I've not got much of the poor stuff from other lines to compare, TBH. IIRC, though, Armada at least was another line that moved the price points around - Supercons were more expensive than RiD Deluxes. The price points aren't interchangeable more than a few years ago; RiD had exactly the same 'problem' as the original line (Takara had made the toys already with little care as to how they'd slot into the BM price points - hence Wedge and the Trainbots being limply forced into unsuitable brackets).

From 2007-2010 figures have been relatively consistent in size (with most of the deviations being intentional - the short stocky ROTF Twins - or due to accessories - classic Hound and Bumblebee). In 2011-2012, they've declined drastically. Drawing any more dramatic lines over periods where the size classes have been actually different is flawed IMO, despite occasional name-only match ups or (again often coincidental) size similarities.

TBH, I think MechTech was something of a test bed - the weapons have zero play value for the most part with their general incompatibility with the toys (Sideswipe's arms can barely support his, for instance). It's been an exercise in seeing if people will still fork out for smaller figures. Presumably enough did, so we get the Prime figures at reduced size.

Cliffjumper wrote:Because I've just bought a Voyager that's a inch taller than a Deluxe for not far off twice the price? I've not dug '07 Ratchet out, but I'm pretty sure RiD Prime Prime is going to look like a total midget if I do.

I get that, but it seems like the entire fandom is having the same reaction at exactly the same time and that's what I don't get.

Cliffjumper wrote:There's no size change between '07 and '09-10.

The comparisons across those years is skewed a bit, I think, because so many of the '07 Movie molds were revisited in ROTF, and ROTF molds in HFTD. But I think there is. My collection of Voyagers isn't big enough to be scientific, but comparing apples to apples for a second you can see some individual characters shrinking as they get new molds. ROTF Voyager Starscream is a bit smaller than '07 Starscream and HFTD Prime has probably 20% less mass than '07 Voyager Prime, for example.

HFTD is probably where the size gap from one 'Movie' line to the next was first really noticeable, though. Voyager Prime was average height but very skinny, Seaspray was even shorter and Lugnut is looks big but has zero mass in his arms or legs. The Deluxes were noticeably smaller too, such as an Ironhide that's shorter than even most DOTM toys, blocky runts Hailstorm and Mindset, and skinny buggers Terradive and Tomahawk.

And the same size drop happened between Cybertron and Classics, didn't it? Although in that case, everyone was too happy to have new G1 toys to complain.

I completely understand why people are annoyed by the on-average smaller toys that we get nowadays. I guess I'm just confused why the fandom wasn't complaining about it this vocally a couple years ago. Did Hasbro just do that good of a job faking us out with redecos of older, bigger toys that we didn't catch on until DOTM came out and everyone was tiny?

Cliffjumper wrote:I've not got much of the poor stuff from other lines to compare, TBH. IIRC, though, Armada at least was another line that moved the price points around - Supercons were more expensive than RiD Deluxes.

From what I can remember, the price points stayed basically the same here from Beast Wars to Armada (Deluxes/Supercons around $13 or $14 ($10 US), Ultras/Maxcons around $30 ($20 US)). The Armada Supercons and Universe Deluxes were definitely the same price (and the Ultras/Maxcons) as well as being more-or-less analogous in size, and the same price points carried on into Energon, Cybertron and the modern figures. And the same prices continued from then on until now, give or take a dollar every few years for inflation. And the same basically holds true in the US as well.

Cliffjumper wrote:Drawing any more dramatic lines over periods where the size classes have been actually different is flawed IMO, despite occasional name-only match ups or (again often coincidental) size similarities.

But regardless of name the actual price points that Hasbro sells it's figures at have remain pretty much unchanged for a decade now (with the exception of adding Legends around 2005 and phasing out Ultras after Universe), and the value we've been getting at the $20 US price point has been shrinking for just as long. It's all well and good to point at a couple years worth of toys and say that we didn't see much shrinkage then, but at the end of the day it's just as easy for me to line up all the figures I've bought in that price point over the last decade and see a steady drop in size.

Don't think I'm out of topic, but...........

One thing I always tried to convince my self. Don't complain too much, Transformers, bottom line, is still a toy line for children. But then looked at those comic-cons, bot-cons, toy fair, conventions, etc. these years, who are the majority attendees? And Hasbro saw and knew who they are. I'm not saying Hasbro should produce toys aiming on adults/teenagers, but I just don't think Hasbro should totally ignore them that they should just swallow whatever Hasbro provide them whether good or bad. True, I have choice of buying or not buying for my self. But sometimes I feel really bad when my son really wants a figure but I have to tell him "you don't want this, it's a bad toy" or forcefully buying a toy for him deeply knowing it's a piece of crap. Maybe I shouldn't know and love this franchise that much. Maybe I should just be a dumb and blind parent as I see many others outside that Hasbro think what parents should be. Bottom line, even buying toys for kids, I pay the bill.

Hmm...re the slow creep of downsizing....

I think some of the size constraints of the Deluxe size class, which is what, about 7" tall figures (roughly) don't suit some of the chosen alt modes (i'm thinking tanks and jets versus cars) which have been scrunched down to fit the size class, so i can see some vartiation in size that way.

The thing that's been most noticable - and moreso with DOTM than any other transformer line - is the quality of the materials used. the grey plastics that form the limbs feel quite soft and the sheets used to make up vehicle bodywork look like they'd shatter without much effort (or would easily show stress marks/ fractures). Whether its a cheaper grade of plastic or even a use of recycled plastics that's the cause, i don't know, but coupled with the price hike (average UK cost is £15, taking into account regional variation - you'll pay more if you live in the South of our glorious nation) and a lack of detailing and paint its very hard to feel that you've got value for money.

I'm quite accepting that the global downturn and price of oil will have an effect, but its baffling that on the one hand you've got highly detailed PCC figures (all the two pack PCC figures, regardless of what you think of the line and concept) and on the other stuff like RTS Windcharger - both released within months of each other.

the simplification of the figures for children I don't have a problem with (the thousands of ebay listings for mangled ROTF toys that parents are selling on are probably testament that hasbro perhaps went a little too far with the complexity), nor do i mind accessories (regular old school missile launchers and water guns would be preferable),but it does suck when you've spent the best part of £20 on something that feels a bit lack lustre.

in someways, it feels like we're in a similar position to the line in the late 1980s, where the trend there was also on cutting costs ,simplification and a reliance on gimmicks.

Aside: I am suprised the PCC range didn't do well. That seemed something tailor made for kids and had soem neat play patterns - if they'd sold the drones separately and slung in some repaints of the Armada mini-cons (particualrly the weapon based ones) I wonder if the line might have fared better. It was suprising the cross sell between the 2 and five packs interchangeability was so poor too (at least on the Euro packed figures). Perhaps right idea, wrong time..?