Doctor Who: Time Crash, Voyage of the Damned and Season 4 Discussion

[Lambda prime]

You probably already guessed one of the themes of Doctor Who tonight with the industrial revolution and Cybermen.
Taking all bets the villainous lady in red will be rewarded with conversion and then doctor will cry to them: "This is what you lot are! a idea gone insane, you destroyed her. I can't hate you just the idea that became you."

[Jetfire]

Easily the best of the Christmas episodes. In fact possibly the best RTD who script on the series.

Lots of fun, the mystery wasn't dragged out and generally not any outright shit, bar the minor bit of "I'll show you what you have done to yourself" bit which was fortuantly essentially an irrevelant few seconds for once rather than the basis of the resolution.

[Cliffjumper]

THAT WAS AWESOME! Kinda bad, but in a good way. Even the Cybermen being total wank as per usual and plot holes big enough to throw RTD's arse through wasn't a problem.

The Doctor mystery bit was good - a wee bit predictable (seriously, did anyone over the age of 8 actually think it was a future Doctor?), but really nicely done, especially the sonic screwdriver and the TARDIS. Mad props to David Morrisey for such good bad acting early on too.

And Tetsujin 28 was in it! Goes to show what I've always said - anything can be improved by lobbing a giant robot into the mix.

Lots of awful jokes, but they actually worked.

And I guess that's why you don't see Dervla Kirwan on telly much any more. She died about five years ago, and the Beeb's penny-pinching meant they reanimated her corpse with strings. Harsh.

Jed should get a spin-off series... they gave one to Sarah Jane for less, after all. "No!" "I'll give you five pound notes" "Okay!"

Without that shitstain Tate dragging every single scene down, David Tennant was more tangibly awesome.

Loved the Cybercontroller type with a brain made out of chewed Haribo too - Tetsujin 28 obviously cost a bomb, and as a result the rest of it looked like a panto. Great fun!

The fanboy in me would like to point out that The Doctor is thanked by whoever happened to survive in pretty much every other story, though.

Six stars out of five. I reserve the right to lower that to one if I'm ever stupid enough to watch it again, though. Perfect Christmas viewing

[Lambda prime]

The only thing I liked was the Dreadnought, it reminded me of a comic I once read where aliens invade Earth in a giant man and one character discovers they modeled it after themselves as they dont have birds on theirs.
I reckon the Daleks must have invaded worlds converted by the Mondas Cybermen and scanned their Dreadnoughts, retaining it for tactical information and then these cybus Cybermen copied it and now use Mondas technology.
The only question is how did the Cybermen get it off the Daleks, they couldn't beat them in a firefight, I assume the Daleks didn't survive the trip to the void.

[inflatable dalek]

And I guess that's why you don't see Dervla Kirwan on telly much any more. She died about five years ago, and the Beeb's penny-pinching meant they reanimated her corpse with strings. Harsh.

I thought she was great fun myself, just the right amount of pantomine camp. I do wish the Doctor hadn't used the term Cyberking himself though, I was happy to assume it was her a name she'd made up herself.

Without that shitstain Tate dragging every single scene down, David Tennant was more tangibly awesome.

He was great, very McCoy in that he clearly pretty much guessed right off this wasn't a future himbut was playing it close to chest. Lots and lots of subtext without spelling it out. The only real weak link acting wise was Roseta(?), more because the story required her to come across as a potential non-Victorian which, when the truth came out meant she never really convinced in the role.

The fanboy in me would like to point out that The Doctor is thanked by whoever happened to survive in pretty much every other story, though.

Statement from someone who got all their knowledge of the Doctor from the Cybermen, who are usually all dead by the time anyone thanks him.

The main problem with the show was it would have been a lot simpler to just have it be the Cybermen from our Universe. The idea of the Cybus bunch as galaxy conqourers who know all the Doctors and use giant robots (and it could have been a bit clearer if that was something that fell out the void with them that they patched up or if they built it from scratch) was completely barking. A shame to have their history starting to get muddled on only their third appearence when the reason for the new origin in the first place was that the old one had become to convoluted.

Having said that, whilst the rationel behind it was suspect (unless they did get all that info off the Daleks) how wonderful was it to have the full on Saward montage? I really thought when they cut away from Tom they were only going to do the "proper" Doctor's but no, they were all there and the TV Movie is canon! I assume that was a belated nod to the anniversary. William Hartnel on prime time BBC1 on Christmas day. It doesn't get better than that.

All in all, not as good as last years but still a fun seasonal romp.

EDIT: Though they really need to do at least one episode that ends with the baddy accepting the Doctor's "Stop this and I'll help you" terms.

[Jetfire]

Of course I just thought if the Cybermen can survive and return from the void the Daleks have naturally, especially as it was dalek technology the Cybermen used, implying the void never held the Daleks anyway.

I thought David Morrisey was really good too. Nicley a OTT Doctor impersonation which never got annoying and then the emotional realisation of who he is and his return to form. Both sides felt good, a class above some of the guest stars.

A shame there was no preview for the specials, do we have a date for them yet?

[inflatable dalek]

Of course I just thought if the Cybermen can survive and return from the void the Daleks have naturally, especially as it was dalek technology the Cybermen used, implying the void never held the Daleks anyway.

Another good reason to use "Our" Cybermen, this really did make it far to obvious the Daleks had an escape route as well.

A shame there was no preview for the specials, do we have a date for them yet?

Easter IIRC. They was no chance of a preview, they haven't started filming yet (though it's very close).

I had the RTD book for Christmas, I'm a 100 pages in and it is a interesting read to see how the last season took shape. Those who thought the Tardis was a bit overcrowded at the end should be greatful initial thoughts to bring back Mark Warren and Midshipman Frame fell through...

[Jetfire]

I thought she was great fun myself, just the right amount of pantomine camp. I do wish the Doctor hadn't used the term Cyberking himself though, I was happy to assume it was her a name she'd made up herself.



He was great, very McCoy in that he clearly pretty much guessed right off this wasn't a future himbut was playing it close to chest. Lots and lots of subtext without spelling it out. The only real weak link acting wise was Roseta(?), more because the story required her to come across as a potential non-Victorian which, when the truth came out meant she never really convinced in the role.

i read something that she was cleaning toilets befor ethis special. Good for her but clearly not a great actress. Reasonably likeable and not as anywhere nearly as annoying as Tait.

Statement from someone who got all their knowledge of the Doctor from the Cybermen, who are usually all dead by the time anyone thanks him.

The main problem with the show was it would have been a lot simpler to just have it be the Cybermen from our Universe. The idea of the Cybus bunch as galaxy conqourers who know all the Doctors and use giant robots (and it could have been a bit clearer if that was something that fell out the void with them that they patched up or if they built it from scratch) was completely barking. A shame to have their history starting to get muddled on only their third appearence when the reason for the new origin in the first place was that the old one had become to convoluted.

Good observation, I didn't think about it myself. But couldn't it be this is typical of what the Cybermen do in our Universe and this is a first for the other earth Cybermen but naturally falling into their natural history and instincts. They have a parallel origin but will essentially follow a similar history including their scientific developements.

On another note did the original Cybermen ever timetravel or go as far back as the 1800's? I kinda thought they originated in the 1960's on thereabouts and hence why all stories I remember never seem to date back before then. I could be wrong though.

Having said that, whilst the rationel behind it was suspect (unless they did get all that info off the Daleks) how wonderful was it to have the full on Saward montage? I really thought when they cut away from Tom they were only going to do the "proper" Doctor's but no, they were all there and the TV Movie is canon! I assume that was a belated nod to the anniversary. William Hartnel on prime time BBC1 on Christmas day. It doesn't get better than that.

All in all, not as good as last years but still a fun seasonal romp.

EDIT: Though they really need to do at least one episode that ends with the baddy accepting the Doctor's "Stop this and I'll help you" terms.

Indeed. Why is it that no 'alien/monster henchmen' every get that option. It's a bit ignorant or arrogant to constantly give a million chances for the great leaders and powerful ones a chance to redeem themslevs but never their followers. It's kind a like ignoring the poor common people.

[inflatable dalek]

Good observation, I didn't think about it myself. But couldn't it be this is typical of what the Cybermen do in our Universe and this is a first for the other earth Cybermen but naturally falling into their natural history and instincts. They have a parallel origin but will essentially follow a similar history including their scientific developements.

The problem is though that these Cybermen had been around for-at the very very most- four years from creation to getting trapped in the void (and spent most of that trapped in their factories). Not a lot of time to follow their counterparts. Unless they was a big timejump between them getting chucked out of the void and getting to Victorian Earth where they met all the Doctors and had lots and lots of adventures.

On another note did the original Cybermen ever timetravel or go as far back as the 1800's? I kinda thought they originated in the 1960's on thereabouts and hence why all stories I remember never seem to date back before then. I could be wrong though.

Their first chronological appearence is The Invasion, the date for which is a bit vague but is set no earlier than 1969. There would have been Cybermen out there on their home planet of Mondas at the point when this special was set though.

[Cliffjumper]

I'd actually forgotten the Cybermen thing, which I guess is the production team's plan. TBH, it's a problem they cause by insisting every bunch of Daleks or Cybermen are the LASTEST EVAR!!!, and thus credibility is dropping to "So, you escaped from Castrovalva..." levels. I'm not sure how much continuity needs to be heeded for either species, especially as the old stuff doesn't work particularly sensibly (from memory, the advanced ones from Silver Nemesis are only a couple of years newer than the Tenth Planet ones).

That said, the new series Cybermen haven't made much of an impact on me at all - the Daleks have been updated nicely, if occasionally used in bad stories and overdeployed as season end big bads, but the Cybermen haven't done so well through a mixture of bad scripting, being so obviously made the Daleks' bitches, the tacky catchphrase, and so on. They don't even look particularly good - the Invasion ones were the best to my mind, a slightly human shape in the limbs still there and those excellent helmet designs. I kinda hoped the prop appearance in Dalek was a hint of any reappearance taking that lead, but there we go...

EDIT: Though they really need to do at least one episode that ends with the baddy accepting the Doctor's "Stop this and I'll help you" terms.

I'd love that in theory, but RTD doesn't have the balls, as shown in "Boom Town", where for half an hour we had an interesting moral dilemma for the Doctor, only for our esteemed overlord to lose his guts and have Fatty try to blow up the world. Heh, fat people. Fat people running, hahaha... Fat people on surfboards! ROTFLMAO!!!!

It'd be a nice hook for a companion - a would-be villain comes on board and the Doctor tries to gently mould them into a good person (a little like the superb early Turlough stuff... actually, he was still great after that, just more sarcastic than evil... Turlough deserves much more respect). If it happened after RTD and thus the show wasn't just preachy diatribe, it could be workable.

The only thing I liked was the Dreadnought, it reminded me of a comic I once read where aliens invade Earth in a giant man and one character discovers they modeled it after themselves as they dont have birds on theirs.
I reckon the Daleks must have invaded worlds converted by the Mondas Cybermen and scanned their Dreadnoughts, retaining it for tactical information and then these cybus Cybermen copied it and now use Mondas technology.
The only question is how did the Cybermen get it off the Daleks, they couldn't beat them in a firefight, I assume the Daleks didn't survive the trip to the void.

Was that bollocks to anyone else, or am I pissed on Diet Pepsi?

[Cliffjumper]

Random thought...

• No (obvious) pop culture references (well, apart from Tetsujin)
• No crappy in-jokes
• No CHAVS THROUGH TIME
• No champagne socialist dross
• No historical celebrities
• No stunt casting
• No comedy fat people
• No dialogue along the lines of "Christ, Rosita's black! How different!"
• No crappy second-hand Gladiator music
• = Mega fun.

Lesson to be learnt there, surely? If RTD was able to keep this standard of knockaround unpretentious fun up, I'd be sad to see him go. That said, his specials have been better than his regular episodes on the balance - it's almost like he kicks back and takes time out from being a preachy twat rather than fussing about some ridiculous arc that never actually comes off.

[inflatable dalek]

I'd actually forgotten the Cybermen thing, which I guess is the production team's plan. TBH, it's a problem they cause by insisting every bunch of Daleks or Cybermen are the LASTEST EVAR!!!, and thus credibility is dropping to "So, you escaped from Castrovalva..." levels.

At least there was none of that here, despite assuming that not many Cybermen surrvived there's no grand "And now they're all gone forever" this time. Perhaps he's learnt his lesson?

I'm not sure how much continuity needs to be heeded for either species, especially as the old stuff doesn't work particularly sensibly

I've no problem with them ignoring/not referencing the original series stuff but it would be nice if they could keep the continuity straight with the stuff they've done in the last couple of years. I do think the script could have been done with "our" Cybermen without the need for a single extra continuity reference beyond a "I met some relatives of yours recently" style thing.

(from memory, the advanced ones from Silver Nemesis are only a couple of years newer than the Tenth Planet ones).

Aren't they supposed to be time travellers though? Or is that a fan theory that isn't made explicit in the show itself beyond them looking like the 25th Century Cybermen?

That said, the new series Cybermen haven't made much of an impact on me at all

I still think that Doomsday showed the most convincing Cybermen we've ever seen in the show ever. Very much outgunned by the Daleks but that's a far more credible defeat than just about any they've ever had. I know that's damning with faint praise mind.

I kinda hoped the prop appearance in Dalek was a hint of any reappearance taking that lead, but there we go...

Nerd Moment: That wasn't an Invasion helmet in the Dalek story, it was the Revenge version. Like the difference between battleship grey and military grey, how could you get that wrong?

No champagne socialist dross

The exploitation of workhouse children counts as that surely? Especially as there was no reason for it to be kids and not just sticking the ear implants in a bunch of big manly man workers. Or just getting a couple of Cybermen to do it.

[Cliffjumper]

I've no problem with them ignoring/not referencing the original series stuff but it would be nice if they could keep the continuity straight with the stuff they've done in the last couple of years. I do think the script could have been done with "our" Cybermen without the need for a single extra continuity reference beyond a "I met some relatives of yours recently" style thing.

Sorry, wasn't particularly clear - I've got no problem with any clashes with the old stuff, as vast chunks of Cyber history are left blank by the TV stories, and the similar design could just be, well, ignored... I didn't see the need to specify that they were AU Cybermen, really, and the plot could have been rejigged to just have them as a set of Cybermen sent back from the future by a similar incident.

Aren't they supposed to be time travellers though? Or is that a fan theory that isn't made explicit in the show itself beyond them looking like the 25th Century Cybermen?

I'm 95% it's the latter... IIRC the Cybermen have never shown any of their own time travel capability, usually trying to nick the TARDIS. I'm open to correction, though, and I'm pretty sure the Nemesis bunch don't. About the only fan theory with the Cybermen I give much credit to is a whole bunch of them leaving Mondas and evolving more throroughly before the planet breaks up.

I still think that Doomsday showed the most convincing Cybermen we've ever seen in the show ever. Very much outgunned by the Daleks but that's a far more credible defeat than just about any they've ever had. I know that's damning with faint praise mind.

Yeh, I'd say that tells you more about the Cybermen's past adventures myself - they don't do too badly in The Invasion or Earthshock, but aside from that they tend to be let down by bad scripting (not just bad scripts, I mean that most of the stories actively show the Cybermen to be fairly easy to defeat).

Nerd Moment: That wasn't an Invasion helmet in the Dalek story, it was the Revenge version. Like the difference between battleship grey and military grey, how could you get that wrong?

Awesome - I actually love the Revenge Cybermen with the bell-bottoms, very Super Robot.

The exploitation of workhouse children counts as that surely? Especially as there was no reason for it to be kids and not just sticking the ear implants in a bunch of big manly man workers. Or just getting a couple of Cybermen to do it.

Felt that was more of a bog-standard plot device myself... I guess the explanation is a herd of kids was easier to control and they had limited manufacturing capabilities. The silly bit was the "delete the workforce" moment... I can buy that the inefficient pointless idea was Asumpta calling the shots, but considering there were just two of them... What, were the pair of them just going to wander around nerve gripping dozens of kids and not expecting them to make a run for it?

I can deal with plot holes as long as it doesn't detract from the enjoyment of the episode or the result of someone being too clever by half, to be honest.

[inflatable dalek]

I'm 95% it's the latter... IIRC the Cybermen have never shown any of their own time travel capability, usually trying to nick the TARDIS. I'm open to correction, though, and I'm pretty sure the Nemesis bunch don't. About the only fan theory with the Cybermen I give much credit to is a whole bunch of them leaving Mondas and evolving more throroughly before the planet breaks up.

Shows what my memory is worth. Generally when monsters come back looking a bit different I treat it the same way Star Trek used to treat the Klingon's, pretend they've always looked like that to avoid headaches trying to work out things like exactly when the Daleks added those solar panel things to their design (except with things like the Yeti where the change is part of the script of course). Thinking about it the stolen craft in Attack is pretty much their only directed time travel. Though Earthshock suggests it shouldn't be that far beyond them.

Awesome - I actually love the Revenge Cybermen with the bell-bottoms, very Super Robot.

One design feature carried over from the Revenge model to the current one is the built in guns, even if they're in a different place.

I can deal with plot holes as long as it doesn't detract from the enjoyment of the episode or the result of someone being too clever by half, to be honest.

I do think it's a sign the episode worked for me that all this is just a fun discussion thing after the fact rather than stuff that irritated me durring viewing.

Hmmm, do we take this as proof Pertwee McGann and Eccles all had off screen Cybermen stories then?

Saw the Blackadder christmas special for the first time ever today as well. What percentage of Nicola Bryant's non Who work does that represent?

[Jetfire]

Hmmm, do we take this as proof Pertwee McGann and Eccles all had off screen Cybermen stories then?

A lot to support it unless you want to go down the path that Cybermen actively collect information on the Doctor between encounters. ACTUALLY considering these Cybermen technically should have only encountered the 10th Doctor so far the latter seesm essential.

Saw the Blackadder christmas special for the first time ever today as well. What percentage of Nicola Bryant's non Who work does that represent?

Didn't see it. Which Blackaddet is this? back and forth?

[inflatable dalek]

Didn't see it. Which Blackaddet is this? back and forth?

A Blackadder Christmas Carol, with the twist he's a nice guy who learns how to be a bastard by seeing his ancestors in action. Not quiet as sharp as the original series proper (especially the future bits) but some nice stuff with the feel of the second and third series nicely recreated.

[Jetfire]

Ah yes a great one. I have it on my bookset DVD. ANother underrated special was the one where Stephen Fry places Charles the first just like Charles the second. Brilliant stuff but it seems hardly seen because I think it was a children in need/comic relief/BBC charity phone in's special.

Still I've seen 'Back and forth' twice recently I think. And both times I thought "Where did that talent go?" and "How have they not only got away with stealing their own plot but how did they rehash it so badly?"

[Cliffjumper]

Shows what my memory is worth. Generally when monsters come back looking a bit different I treat it the same way Star Trek used to treat the Klingon's

That was the example I was after... Yeh, a sort of visual retcon if you like, unless as you say it's part of the story that they look different. I was always a bit surprisd the Doctor recognises them in The Moonbase, where the big leap in design happens...

One design feature carried over from the Revenge model to the current one is the built in guns, even if they're in a different place.

Yeh, it's a sound idea - when they have handguns they're cannon fodder as someone always gets one off them and proves to be a much better sharp-shooter...

Saw the Blackadder christmas special for the first time ever today as well. What percentage of Nicola Bryant's non Who work does that represent?

If you like Nicola, it's best to pretend it's about 100% and ignore the Michael Winner film. It took me about three times of seeing that one to recognise her...

[inflatable dalek]

That was the example I was after... Yeh, a sort of visual retcon if you like, unless as you say it's part of the story that they look different. I was always a bit surprisd the Doctor recognises them in The Moonbase, where the big leap in design happens...

But then one of the strange things about The Tenth Planet is he already knows about the Cybermen before he meets them (well, strange for a Hartnell non Dalek story, pretty much par for the course these days). He could well have been familiar with the Moonbase design from lots of exciting off screen adventures in his first body.

If you like Nicola, it's best to pretend it's about 100% and ignore the Michael Winner film. It took me about three times of seeing that one to recognise her...

Well, I like bits of Nicola. I remembered after posting that she's recently played the non speaking part of "Mom" in a washing powder advert. Something for Frema to look forward to there (though IIRC Nicola has more of an excuse for her carea being quiet since Who, she badly injured her back at one point and couldn't do any non sitting down work for a fairly lengthy period).

To go back a bit:

It'd be a nice hook for a companion - a would-be villain comes on board and the Doctor tries to gently mould them into a good person (a little like the superb early Turlough stuff... actually, he was still great after that, just more sarcastic than evil... Turlough deserves much more respect). If it happened after RTD and thus the show wasn't just preachy diatribe, it could be workable.

Oddly enough that's exactly what DWM is doing with their new comic companion, a amnesiac convict the Doctor had to rescue from the ultimately evil prison he put her in. Turlough was great, and tended to bring out a better performance from Tegan as well, their sarcastic barter was great fun.

EDIT: Hang on a sec, who watches a Michael Winner film three times? I bet even he's never seen one of his films that often...

[Cliffjumper]

(though IIRC Nicola has more of an excuse for her carea being quiet since Who, she badly injured her back at one point and couldn't do any non sitting down work for a fairly lengthy period).

Hehehe... though I never thought they were that good, it's more that poor Peri's the only one who had to wander around with the things hanging out

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicola_Bryant - "BBV", "audio spin-off" and "but she's in theatre a fair bit!" are the words that kinda leap out from the article, sadly. Poor girl, the Stranger for one showed she could act what she wasn't shackled with Peri's awful character (I can watch Peri partly because she's pretty awful and it's part of the fun, but I can see why millions of people stopped watching around that point) - in fact, her two most watched roles require her to put on an irritating blatently fake accent and play a pair of repetitive characters. Hell, nowadays that gets you a BBC sketch show and a plum supporting role in the popular kids' show Doctor Who...

Turlough was great, and tended to bring out a better performance from Tegan as well, their sarcastic barter was great fun.

I'm fairly sure Mark Strickson spent the year on crack, to be honest, and it's very much to the credit of the production team that such an unusual companion was used - rewatching his stories in order, it's amazing that they never really bother explaining anything about him to the audience until Planet of Fire.